Hartford Citizens for Responsible Government

[Guest]

HCRG has to be High why should wal-mart have to pay for a recall??? The HCRG should pay for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pissed off citizen]

I could give two craps if this was hidden by the city or not, If you want to fight Wal-mart coming to Hartford do it with your own money and not my tax dollars. The truth of the matter is do you really think you are going to stop a company as big as Wal-mart? If you win and prevent Wal-mart from building in Hartford, what is going to stop them from building in Dodge county right next to Hartford. Then not only will you have costed the city and tax payers money to keep them out, but the businesses will face the same challenges as well as Hartford will not get the tax benefit. So I see nothing but a loose situation from your stand point. I will be quite honest the customer service and the prices of goods and services in Hartford area stores is poor and I never shop in Hartford due to this. I drive to West Bend or Germantown because the cost of goods and service is much better and the prices are also a lot better. Not to mention customer service is a lot better, especially at the big box stores. At least at the big box stores I get a good morning!!! Is that so hard to do??? So I welcome Wal-mart with open arms. I think this will do nothing but good of the community.

[admin]

[quote="pissed off citizen"]I could give two craps if this was hidden by the city or not, If you want to fight Wal-mart coming to Hartford do it with your own money and not my tax dollars. The truth of the matter is do you really think you are going to stop a company as big as Wal-mart? If you win and prevent Wal-mart from building in Hartford, what is going to stop them from building in Dodge county right next to Hartford. Then not only will you have costed the city and tax payers money to keep them out, but the businesses will face the same challenges as well as Hartford will not get the tax benefit. So I see nothing but a loose situation from your stand point. I will be quite honest the customer service and the prices of goods and services in Hartford area stores is poor and I never shop in Hartford due to this. I drive to West Bend or Germantown because the cost of goods and service is much better and the prices are also a lot better. Not to mention customer service is a lot better, especially at the big box stores. At least at the big box stores I get a good morning!!! Is that so hard to do??? So I welcome Wal-mart with open arms. I think this will do nothing but good of the community.[/quote]

Well, if a "good morning" from the greeter is what you are looking for, then more power to ya'. Truth is, if everyone gives up the fight, which is what you have obviously done, then it is definitely over. Alot of people in this community have not given up.

Thank you for your input.

[Guest]

That is the best answer you have, how can you get out of what I posted that I "gave up the fight" the fight for what better goods and services? I am fighting that by saying OK to wal-mart. Wal-mart, Home Depot, Lowes just to name a few all have really good customer service and pricing. This is why they are successful and companies in Hartford would be too if they would follow these companies business models. These companies did not becomes what they are due to poor service, poor products and high prices. But prices are not everything, the TrueValve in Hartford has good customer service and products, but even though the prices are higher then at Home Depot I still shop there due to convenience and the service. If the other stores in Hartford like Senty and K-mart where like this I would shop there too, but Sentry has poor product and customer service and k-mart has poor customer service. They would rather spit on you then help you.

[admin]

[quote="Anonymous"]That is the best answer you have, how can you get out of what I posted that I "gave up the fight" the fight for what better goods and services? I am fighting that by saying OK to wal-mart. Wal-mart, Home Depot, Lowes just to name a few all have really good customer service and pricing. This is why they are successful and companies in Hartford would be too if they would follow these companies business models. These companies did not becomes what they are due to poor service, poor products and high prices. But prices are not everything, the TrueValve in Hartford has good customer service and products, but even though the prices are higher then at Home Depot I still shop there due to convenience and the service. If the other stores in Hartford like Senty and K-mart where like this I would shop there too, but Sentry has poor product and customer service and k-mart has poor customer service. They would rather spit on you then help you.[/quote]

Let's do it this way - forget that Wal-Mart is even in the equation.

Let's suppose, just for the sake of debate, that "the issue" instead is that the developer representing a major entertainment venue wants to turn the Chandelier Ballroom into an entertainment complex called "Walter's" a "gentlemen's club". It's already doing business there as a type of "entertainment venue", even though it is only a few short blocks from a grade school and high school.

Let's suppose that the city is keeping the proposed development secret, because it is all still "speculative", but not so "speculative" that City Administrator Koppelberger is advising them on how to secure the deal with the least amount of political controversy.

When the issue is finally out in the open, let's just suppose:

1. 20% of the voting populous sign a petition against it.
2. 200+ pack a council chamber and speak out against the project by a 7 to 1 margin.
3. Common council members insist that the deal has been out the open for long enough that the people have had a chance to speak.
4. Studies show that the Mineshaft would close, and the business of several other existing bars, restaurants, and "entertainment centers" would be greatly affected (even though many residents agree that this would not necessarily be a bad thing).
5. Common Council members have stated that since only 20% of the voters have signed a petition against it, that the other 80% must be in favor of it.
6. The Common Council insists that they have met all of the legal minimum requirements, therefore there is no legal reason to deny them from opening that business there.
7. They go ahead and approve the request. Welcome to Walter's!

Where would you stand now?

Thank you for your input.

HCRG

HCRG

[Guest]

Now you are delusional, This would never become a situation and is very extreme not to mention the government officials in Hartford have kids too. So your example is horrible.

As far as 20% voting population signing the partition, which at lest 5% is not Hartford residents but rather area business owners. Of course businesses in Hartford are going to sign that partition, because they don't want competition. They don't have competition now so they have no reason to improve goods and services. But even if you count that 5%, 20% is still not significant, if it was at least 50% of the population then I could see your point.

The 200+ that spoke against it are only a percentage of the population against it. People like myself that are happy with the decision kept quite, but now I see that myself as well as everyone in my neighborhood and anyone else in Hartford that supports wal-mart will need to show up at these meetings.

Now you are feeding me a line of bull. The Mineshaft close your funny. Wal-mart is not even in direct competition with the Mineshaft or with any bars and restaurants, not to mention the Mineshaft has very good food, reasonable prices and good customer service. SO this will never happen. As far as the other bars, who cares, does Hartford really need 6 or so Bars all in one area? I think bars bring down the appeal of downtown and make it look trashy. Look at Dave's lanes oh that looks like a classy place. Then there is Fong's, anybody care for Rat?? and China Garden more horrible food. The main reason these places are still open is because there is no where else to go in Hartford for food and a lot of people settle for the sub par food and service The only bar and restaurant I go to and are worth going to in Hartford are the Mineshaft, Angie Bee's and Perc Place. Angie Bee's has both Subway and Cousin's to contend with and they are doing fine. You want to know why, it is because they provide way better food then the two chain's. And now I see Perc Place will be also getting competition from another coffee house being built across the street from the new Aura Hospital. I don't see any partitions being signed to stop this so why is Wal-mart different from this new coffee house? So competition is good and is needed to make the existing companies improve or go out of business if they choose not to improve.

[Guest]

Damn I really tried signing in this time and It does not work. The above post is from "Pissed Off Citizen"

[admin]

[quote="Anonymous"]Now you are delusional, This would never become a situation and is very extreme not to mention the government officials in Hartford have kids too. So your example is horrible.

As far as 20% voting population signing the partition, which at lest 5% is not Hartford residents but rather area business owners. Of course businesses in Hartford are going to sign that partition, because they don't want competition. They don't have competition now so they have no reason to improve goods and services. But even if you count that 5%, 20% is still not significant, if it was at least 50% of the population then I could see your point.

The 200+ that spoke against it are only a percentage of the population against it. People like myself that are happy with the decision kept quite, but now I see that myself as well as everyone in my neighborhood and anyone else in Hartford that supports wal-mart will need to show up at these meetings.

Now you are feeding me a line of bull. The Mineshaft close your funny. Wal-mart is not even in direct competition with the Mineshaft or with any bars and restaurants, not to mention the Mineshaft has very good food, reasonable prices and good customer service. SO this will never happen. As far as the other bars, who cares, does Hartford really need 6 or so Bars all in one area? I think bars bring down the appeal of downtown and make it look trashy. Look at Dave's lanes oh that looks like a classy place. Then there is Fong's, anybody care for Rat?? and China Garden more horrible food. The main reason these places are still open is because there is no where else to go in Hartford for food and a lot of people settle for the sub par food and service The only bar and restaurant I go to and are worth going to in Hartford are the Mineshaft, Angie Bee's and Perc Place. Angie Bee's has both Subway and Cousin's to contend with and they are doing fine. You want to know why, it is because they provide way better food then the two chain's. And now I see Perc Place will be also getting competition from another coffee house being built across the street from the new Aura Hospital. I don't see any partitions being signed to stop this so why is Wal-mart different from this new coffee house? So competition is good and is needed to make the existing companies improve or go out of business if they choose not to improve.[/quote]

Hi PO'd - sorry about the logging in thing.

Anyway, let's pick a different controversial business - casino, gun store, pawn shop - all legitimate businesses, and say they all meet the same criteria and were hidden from the public, and approved by the Common Council. It doesn't make sense to me that they should hide a controversial business from the public.

If their vision for the city is a 150-acre commercial complex, get the people on their side supporting it. If it really is such a good idea, why are they afraid of a referendum? Are they afraid that the same will thing will happen that happened in the referendums in Monroe or other cities?

Why is this such a bad idea?

Admin

[Pissed Off Citizen]

Admin,

I agree that the city should not hide things from the public of this nature, but you need to pick your battles and when you do pick your battles make sure that the majority of the citizen's are suporting that battle. I have yet to talk to a resident of Hartford that is against wal-mart coming to Hartford. In fact I was at the wal-mart in Germantown the other day and ran into two Hartford residents, and they like myself wish there was a place closer to home to shop that had simular products, pricing and customer service. As I stated before on this site, if the majority of the citizen's in Harford were against Wal-mart then I can see the point of choosing this battle, but the HCRG nor the city for that matter does not have a clue how many people are for or against Wal-mart. I cannot beleive that the HCRG did not do this as step 1 in the process before going full forward and making asumptions that the majority of the Hartford citizen's are against wal-mart coming to Hartford. As I said in another thread because of the HCRG's lack of knowing this key piece of information they are no better then the city which is what HCRG is fighting against. I really wish that the city did not hide this from the public, because this could have all been avoided and I would almost bet that the majority of the citizen's in Hartford would have voted yes to wal-mart and Hartford would have had a wal-mart by now.

[admin]

[quote="Pissed Off Citizen"]Admin,

I agree that the city should not hide things from the public of this nature, but you need to pick your battles and when you do pick your battles make sure that the majority of the citizen's are suporting that battle. I have yet to talk to a resident of Hartford that is against wal-mart coming to Hartford. In fact I was at the wal-mart in Germantown the other day and ran into two Hartford residents, and they like myself wish there was a place closer to home to shop that had simular products, pricing and customer service. As I stated before on this site, if the majority of the citizen's in Harford were against Wal-mart then I can see the point of choosing this battle, but the HCRG nor the city for that matter does not have a clue how many people are for or against Wal-mart. I cannot beleive that the HCRG did not do this as step 1 in the process before going full forward and making asumptions that the majority of the Hartford citizen's are against wal-mart coming to Hartford. As I said in another thread because of the HCRG's lack of knowing this key piece of information they are no better then the city which is what HCRG is fighting against. I really wish that the city did not hide this from the public, because this could have all been avoided and I would almost bet that the majority of the citizen's in Hartford would have voted yes to wal-mart and Hartford would have had a wal-mart by now.[/quote]

Hi PO'd -

Glad to see we agree on something.

You are right - this is not an easy (or fun) battle. Yes, it would be "nice" to have some shopping alternatives. So let's push for a Piggly Wiggly, Ace Hardware, Menard's, Kohl's, etc., businesses that aren't constantly fighting for some good PR - where there is so much smoke, there has got to be a fire burning someplace.

And like you said, IF the majority are in favor, we can get this whole thing behind us. In the 3rd District, Isleb claims that the majority are in favor of Wal-Mart. But the other two 3rd District Alderpersons - Garza and Ziemer - have both stated that the majority of the people that have contacted them are against it. So no one knows - that's our point - let's find out.

Regarding the hiding of the information: the information came out from Koppelberger to the council in November of 2003 only because some people (who eventually became members of the HCRG) requested the information, indicating that the "cat" was now out of the bag. It still took them another 5 months to "formally" acknowledge that the project was in the works. This indicates not only a cover-up, but borders on a conspiracy to keep this controversial issue out of the public eye as long as possible.

A democracy works only if the elected representatives are open and honest with their constituents. We don't believe that happened here.

Thanks again for your input.

Admin

[Guest]

[quote="admin"][quote="Pissed Off Citizen"]A democracy works only if the elected representatives are open and honest with their constituents. We don't believe that happened here.
[/quote]

Key word here is ELECTED officials. How do you get off changing that? Is your opinion on the matter that heart-felt to you that you think you can just override a couple hundred years of constitual democracy? Who voted you guys to voice the opinion of the residents of this city and asked you to fight against this whole thing? Oh...wait a minute...NO ONE. Much the opposite, we voted for the officials representing us so BACK OFF! My god why don't you just burn a flag on top of city hall while you're at it and ask the fire department to spit it out.

This whole walmart fiasco STINKS because of what you are doing. Worse yet, you are lending to the increase of my taxes doing it, and doing something that evidently no one wants you doing. I was quite suprised to see the amount of opposition being posted on this site...not opposing WalMart, but rather, opposing the HCRG. It would appear the same is true in the 3rd district too...327 to 171...good game!!

I am 100% behind the Walmart coming to Hartford. This stinkhole of a town absoloutely needs a place where you can go just to get some of the more basic things in life. Kame-aprat sucks and aside from that what are we left with...a trip out of town or go hang out with the rif-raff at the TWO dollar stores (two!!). And downtown? Whats downtown that most people in this day in age really give two #@@#'s about? If there were more to downtown than a thrift store and some craft botique, I might consider going there at some point other than to get drunk, but until they can offer something more for people, they are left to fend for themselves.

I just can't believe I have to live in a place where the very foundations of free-enterprise is being questioned and fought by a group of "citizens" who think they can go over everything that makes this country what it is to get what they want...must be nice.

I should also note that I have lived in Hartford for 30 years and have been working in the Dodge County Industrial park for the last 3. I can personally attest to the traffic problems that have become more and more prominent, but if that is one of the bigger staples in your prosecution, maybe you should have been around when the bypass's were shot down. I don't disagree Walmart will lend to this problem, but fact is with or without Walmart, it is a problem that already needs to be addressed so don't blame them for it...ecspecially when they are planning to foot the bill to fix at least some of it.

If you want to be "responsible", why don't you shift gears a bit and worry more about the problems our schools are facing (i.e. bomb threats, overcrowding, etc). I would eagerly support you for that, but all the stress you are putting on a freakin Walmart is down right irresponsible imo.

[guest]

Thank you for HCRG for once again being the vocal MINORITY and costing the tax payers money. If it is so important to you back it with your own dollars. I am sure your reply will be we did everything with in the system its our right to recall BLAH,BLAH,BLAH

[admin]

[quote="guest"]Thank you for HCRG for once again being the vocal MINORITY and costing the tax payers money. If it is so important to you back it with your own dollars. I am sure your reply will be we did everything with in the system its our right to recall BLAH,BLAH,BLAH[/quote]

Are you so sure we are in the minority? Still, nobody knows for sure. The city leaders are still afraid to ask. Why? Nobody knows. They aren't talking.

Try this on for size: The city knew that it was going to be a controversial issue. They were so sure of it that they were advising WalMart on how to work around the controversy. Instead, they could have taken it to the people of Hartford, built some positive incentive, put it in a referendum, and its a done deal. We wouldn't be here talking about it.

Put the cost blame where it belongs - on the city leaders who are afraid to ask their own constiuents.

It was so easy to collect recall petition signatures, and people were so willing to talk about how dissatisfied they are with the developments in Hartford.

The only thing we (the people of Hartford) need is a viable candidate to un-seat those that are in a big hurry to turn Hartford into West Bend West. Of course if, as "Guest 1" above states, this is such "a stinkhole of a town", then I guess a Wal-Mart is the perfect fit.

And I sure hope your comments on the downtown are 1) not in the majority, and 2) paid attention to by our common council members.

I agree: two dollars stores and 10 restaurants that either serve and/or deliver pizza (maybe "only" 9 now that Sully's is gone) all make as much sense as a Wal-Mart Super Center for a town of only 12,000 people.

Maybe the HCRG can help eventually with gathering support for a by-pass. But it will never happen without the support from the county. And with the history of bickering between West Bend and Hartford, that is likely to never happen. I think West Bend is jealous because Hartford has more of the top employers in the county.

So let's just keep adding more traffic. The trash bag is overflowing already - let's see how much garbage we can stuff in it before it bursts.

The overcrowding in the schools is is a result of the uncontrolled growth, which exactly the cycle that we are trying to break. Wal-Mart just happens to be the last straw. The uncontrolled growth is the root of the traffic problems and the over-crowded schools, which we see as the 2 biggest issues facing this city. Adding more commercial development on farmland on the west side is not the answer.

Thank you both for your input.

Admin

[guest]

In all reality if you want proof that you are the vocal minority just look at your recall election results. You got killed, and that point can't be argued. Now you are going to do another recall spend another 5 or 6 thousand dollars and your answer is its the councils fault. Lets face the facts. You got a group of people who were upset and made some waves. Then the press caught wind, and guess what this makes a great story (especially with all the anti-walmart sentiment across the country). I mean what could be better the little man versus the big bad wolf. So now your support base grows you use the great cover up scandal and get a petition signed and show up to a meeting making a whole bunch of noise. Alright so far so good for you.
Then the recall comes and the whole thing blows up in your face. If that wasn't enough of a message look at your own poll on YOUR website your losing there to. You made a good try, you spoke out, and did what you felt you had to do. Now please leave it go, or have your group pony up the money instead of spending the tax payers.

[AmyK]

I just copied a couple of lines from your post...

[quote="Anonymous"]

This stinkhole of a town absoloutely needs a place where you can go just to get some of the more basic things in life.

I should also note that I have lived in Hartford for 30 years and have been working in the Dodge County Industrial park for the last 3.
[/quote]

I am a newcomer to Hartford, and I think things are pretty nice, but I am really glad to see people trying to fix the things that ar wrong. Traffic is pretty ugly downtown, and if it gets worse because of Walmart, I may move closer to my job before my roots are set here. I like Walmart, but I don't mind driving a few minutes to get to one - they are all over the place incase you haven't noticed.

If you have lived here for 30 years as you claim, and this is such a stinkhole of a town, then I would say it's all your own fault for not starting your own hrcg 25 years ago.

And if this is such a stinkhole of a town, then you should be thanking them for trying to change it. You sound like a grouchy old man that will complain about evertthing.

Thank you for a place where I can speak my piece.

[admin]

[quote="AmyK"]

If you have lived here for 30 years as you claim, and this is such a stinkhole of a town, then I would say it's all your own fault for not starting your own hrcg 25 years ago.

And if this is such a stinkhole of a town, then you should be thanking them for trying to change it. You sound like a grouchy old man that will complain about evertthing.

[/quote]

Hi AK -

Good point. Thanks for the input.

Admin.